But I have been researching Ivinian culture alot. Coming from a non-scandanavian country, I have found that the Ivinian society dynamics are fundamentally different to feudal kindgoms.
I have been working on a fanon for Tawheim (Orbaal) for a while. The Valhakkar has travelled widely and brought the customs of many lands to his court. I have been looking into possibilities and many of these likely come from other Ivinian cultures (eg: Chelemby, Harbaal, Selbenvaal)
With that said, it could be argued that Chelemby is a special case. It has an Ivinian foundation, but has elements from various neibouring cultures (largely feudal).
I have been looking at elements to include in possible campaigns. One that I was thinking was the players escorting one of the clan's Husgaren. This Husgaren is a key advisor for the Valhakkar. So will visit various Nalards, Kanthusen (trading posts), travel on ships, conducting diplomatic/political missions, explore possible new markets etc (naturally there will be those who oppose clan activies for various reasons).
When you design a campaign in Chelemby, don't forget the clan ties to other branches of the clan in other countries such as Harbaal, Ivinia, Orbaal, Quaphor etc. They can add alot.
But I have been researching Ivinian culture alot. Coming from a non-scandanavian country, I have found that the Ivinian society dynamics are fundamentally different to feudal kindgoms.
I have been working on a fanon for Tawheim (Orbaal) for a while. The Valhakkar has travelled widely and brought the customs of many lands to his court. I have been looking into possibilities and many of these likely come from other Ivinian cultures (eg: Chelemby, Harbaal, Selbenvaal)
With that said, it could be argued that Chelemby is a special case. It has an Ivinian foundation, but has elements from various neibouring cultures (largely feudal).
I have been looking at elements to include in possible campaigns. One that I was thinking was the players escorting one of the clan's Husgaren. This Husgaren is a key advisor for the Valhakkar. So will visit various Nalards, Kanthusen (trading posts), travel on ships, conducting diplomatic/political missions, explore possible new markets etc (naturally there will be those who oppose clan activies for various reasons).
When you design a campaign in Chelemby, don't forget the clan ties to other branches of the clan in other countries such as Harbaal, Ivinia, Orbaal, Quaphor etc. They can add alot.
Cheers, Peter. I was thinking as well that the nature of each particular relationship would vary a lot.
After writing those questions, I found an answer to one of them: in the Koladis and Evanekin articles, it says that businesses pay 5% to their sponsoring clan, instead of guild dues (plus 5% to the local government). I imagine Chelemby city would be the same.
As an aside, is or was your game (either as player or GM) set in Chelemby? If so, I'd be interested to hear what the campaign involved.
Cheers, Peter. I was thinking as well that the nature of each particular relationship would vary a lot.
After writing those questions, I found an answer to one of them: in the Koladis and Evanekin articles, it says that businesses pay 5% to their sponsoring clan, instead of guild dues (plus 5% to the local government). I imagine Chelemby city would be the same.
As an aside, is or was your game (either as player or GM) set in Chelemby? If so, I'd be interested to hear what the campaign involved.
naturally with the individual (informal) nature of the client-clan relationships, there is alot of scope for variation, but here is my thoughts
Craftsmen/Clansmen in towns/cities are an interesting case; I would expect they could be considered the same as a guilded franchise on Tia-Nalari clans (The clans collects a tenth of gross revenue). They have the protection of the Tia-Nalari clan and in many cases the franchise itself is possible due to the support of the clan. (This is much the same as guild taxes in feudal states)
In addition Craftsmen/Clansmen would pay the various taxes required to the local testrad who governs the location.
Remember Tia-Nalari clans are on the myriad of Testrads (councils) that govern individual aspects of all aspects of Chelembian government. Thus there can be of political activity behind the scenes, should a Tia-Nalari clan wants a particular decision. The more important the decision, the more influence a Tia-nalari clan (and their Allies) will bring to bear.
Sponsored clansmen will also benefit economically. Effectively being able to buy "wholesale" from other clansmen (craftsmen, farmers, mercantylers or whatever) from both the Tia-Nalari clan, plus other Tia-Nalari clans in the same trading alliance.
It is also worth remembering that Tia-Nalari clans who hold concessions, have a significant advantage with trade. Not only to they avoid import duties, but they also avoid bonding and hawking fees.
I believe the individual holds a franchise not the clan. However if he is on clan land he needs clan approval, and if it is on common land he needs Testrad approval. The Tia-Nalari clan can influence a Testrad; but more inportantly, the Valhakkar can remove their Tia-Nalari protection of the individual which considerably changes his legal status. I suspect a clansmen will do whatever they can to remain on good terms with his Valhakkar.
If the Tia-Nalari clan holds a concession. There will also be potentially a standing demand for goods from the clan's mercantylers who will consolidate goods in preparation for the next shipment.
Other clans in the trade alliance will benefit economically from Kanthusen (trading posts), concessionaries and ships from other alliance members.
as far as religious clans. Generally religion is an individual thing and up to the individual adherant (who will generally pay 10% of his gross income as a tithe).
for example:
about 10% of chelembians worship Peoni; each of these will generally pay 10% of their gross income. Similarly for Halea (10%), Larani (5%), Agrik (5%)
This can vary somewhat, for example, Peonians are largely rural farmers, whilst Haleans are middle class townsfolk.
There is an interesting point will be some adherants who will worship (or at least give lip service to) multiple dietes.
Also Sarajinian tithes will be distibuted among the various religious clans; Agrikan support will be split among the 3 different Agrikan religious orders.
In addition, most most of the chelembian Haleans will be from clans Ekatriasa and Hlandes; most Agrikans will come from clans Paserin and Noordsen.
It is also worth remembering that Agrikans, Laranians and Haleans will have a relatively small number of temples, whereas Peoni and Sarajin will have large number of smaller churches.
naturally with the individual (informal) nature of the client-clan relationships, there is alot of scope for variation, but here is my thoughts
Craftsmen/Clansmen in towns/cities are an interesting case; I would expect they could be considered the same as a guilded franchise on Tia-Nalari clans (The clans collects a tenth of gross revenue). They have the protection of the Tia-Nalari clan and in many cases the franchise itself is possible due to the support of the clan. (This is much the same as guild taxes in feudal states)
In addition Craftsmen/Clansmen would pay the various taxes required to the local testrad who governs the location.
Remember Tia-Nalari clans are on the myriad of Testrads (councils) that govern individual aspects of all aspects of Chelembian government. Thus there can be of political activity behind the scenes, should a Tia-Nalari clan wants a particular decision. The more important the decision, the more influence a Tia-nalari clan (and their Allies) will bring to bear.
Sponsored clansmen will also benefit economically. Effectively being able to buy "wholesale" from other clansmen (craftsmen, farmers, mercantylers or whatever) from both the Tia-Nalari clan, plus other Tia-Nalari clans in the same trading alliance.
It is also worth remembering that Tia-Nalari clans who hold concessions, have a significant advantage with trade. Not only to they avoid import duties, but they also avoid bonding and hawking fees.
I believe the individual holds a franchise not the clan. However if he is on clan land he needs clan approval, and if it is on common land he needs Testrad approval. The Tia-Nalari clan can influence a Testrad; but more inportantly, the Valhakkar can remove their Tia-Nalari protection of the individual which considerably changes his legal status. I suspect a clansmen will do whatever they can to remain on good terms with his Valhakkar.
If the Tia-Nalari clan holds a concession. There will also be potentially a standing demand for goods from the clan's mercantylers who will consolidate goods in preparation for the next shipment.
Other clans in the trade alliance will benefit economically from Kanthusen (trading posts), concessionaries and ships from other alliance members.
as far as religious clans. Generally religion is an individual thing and up to the individual adherant (who will generally pay 10% of his gross income as a tithe).
for example:
about 10% of chelembians worship Peoni; each of these will generally pay 10% of their gross income. Similarly for Halea (10%), Larani (5%), Agrik (5%)
This can vary somewhat, for example, Peonians are largely rural farmers, whilst Haleans are middle class townsfolk.
There is an interesting point will be some adherants who will worship (or at least give lip service to) multiple dietes.
Also Sarajinian tithes will be distibuted among the various religious clans; Agrikan support will be split among the 3 different Agrikan religious orders.
In addition, most most of the chelembian Haleans will be from clans Ekatriasa and Hlandes; most Agrikans will come from clans Paserin and Noordsen.
It is also worth remembering that Agrikans, Laranians and Haleans will have a relatively small number of temples, whereas Peoni and Sarajin will have large number of smaller churches.
Essentially, the material in the Tapestry Saga was adventure based. It described plots and characters and drew on existing material as to where these adventures took place.
The series of adventures were deliberately written over a 20 year period. This was mailnly due to a discussion that was held in the early design stage that came to the opinion that characters in most RPGs have an incredible amount of adventures in a short time frame. Of course, this is artificially generated by the game and the characters wanting to keep the adventure going. Nobody wants to look after their farm holdings for 5 years or so after slaying a few dragons.
In keeping with the more believable environment of Harn, we wanted the GM to take a guiding hand and, when one part of the saga was complete, the players would be told that x years have gone by, before introducing hooks into the next part of the adventure. We were even devising a set of tables to generate character-related events that happened during the period of down-time.
As Robin points out, an adventure, by its very nature must be able to progress beyond 720. The Tapestry material did not create new historical events or generate new Gods etc. It drew off existing canon. However, in any game a GM and/or the players may be responsible for generating major changes in the world. That becomes their own personal verion of Harn (I think Robin refers to these as p-Harns).
On another note, while developing the Tapestry series, it was hoped that we would be able to add in a few 'easter eggs' drawn from material that Robin has not released. A few new things to whet the appetite of fans. But...alas, corporate problems arose and the Harn project was abandonned. I was moved on to d20 modules for another year or so before Auran decided it didn't need creative writers anymore - just programmers and artists.
Essentially, the material in the Tapestry Saga was adventure based. It described plots and characters and drew on existing material as to where these adventures took place.
The series of adventures were deliberately written over a 20 year period. This was mailnly due to a discussion that was held in the early design stage that came to the opinion that characters in most RPGs have an incredible amount of adventures in a short time frame. Of course, this is artificially generated by the game and the characters wanting to keep the adventure going. Nobody wants to look after their farm holdings for 5 years or so after slaying a few dragons.
In keeping with the more believable environment of Harn, we wanted the GM to take a guiding hand and, when one part of the saga was complete, the players would be told that x years have gone by, before introducing hooks into the next part of the adventure. We were even devising a set of tables to generate character-related events that happened during the period of down-time.
As Robin points out, an adventure, by its very nature must be able to progress beyond 720. The Tapestry material did not create new historical events or generate new Gods etc. It drew off existing canon. However, in any game a GM and/or the players may be responsible for generating major changes in the world. That becomes their own personal verion of Harn (I think Robin refers to these as p-Harns).
On another note, while developing the Tapestry series, it was hoped that we would be able to add in a few 'easter eggs' drawn from material that Robin has not released. A few new things to whet the appetite of fans. But...alas, corporate problems arose and the Harn project was abandonned. I was moved on to d20 modules for another year or so before Auran decided it didn't need creative writers anymore - just programmers and artists.
What you have both raised and discussed sounds about right.
Chélemby is an evolving cultural mixture, so it has elements of Ivínian and southwestern 'feudal' culture.
On the nalâri (freeholds), the rights (and responsibilities!) regarding bearing arms will be dictated by the válhakâr (clandhead) and the thrángaad (ruling council), much as Peter has suggested. Generally, members of a tia-nalári (noble) clan will expect to be able to bear some arms; but you would only expect the válhakâr, their immediate circle (the 'válhakøren') and the husgâranen (huscarls) to be significantly armed most of the time.
In the towns, in the national reserve (wilderness) and on the royal highways, the rule of the Nálstrad (parliament) and the Crown apply, as Daniel has suggested, and probably in the way he has suggested.
Cheers
Jeremy
---------------------
Fástred al Beréma,
Rówanti al Sávè-k’nôr
What you have both raised and discussed sounds about right.
Chélemby is an evolving cultural mixture, so it has elements of Ivínian and southwestern 'feudal' culture.
On the nalâri (freeholds), the rights (and responsibilities!) regarding bearing arms will be dictated by the válhakâr (clandhead) and the thrángaad (ruling council), much as Peter has suggested. Generally, members of a tia-nalári (noble) clan will expect to be able to bear some arms; but you would only expect the válhakâr, their immediate circle (the 'válhakøren') and the husgâranen (huscarls) to be significantly armed most of the time.
In the towns, in the national reserve (wilderness) and on the royal highways, the rule of the Nálstrad (parliament) and the Crown apply, as Daniel has suggested, and probably in the way he has suggested.
Cheers
Jeremy
---------------------
Fástred al Beréma,
Rówanti al Sávè-k’nôr
Thanks, Peter, that is helpful. As I've previously focussed nearly all my attention on Kaldor, the different social structure of Chelemby will take some getting used to.
I imagine that in places under Nastrad (or is it royal) authority, ie, Chelemby city, Koladis and Evanekin, there are certain conventions on bearing arms that are followed? Presumably the clanheads and their house guards would be allowed the full range of arms, whereas for most other folk there would be limits?
Thanks, Peter, that is helpful. As I've previously focussed nearly all my attention on Kaldor, the different social structure of Chelemby will take some getting used to.
I imagine that in places under Nastrad (or is it royal) authority, ie, Chelemby city, Koladis and Evanekin, there are certain conventions on bearing arms that are followed? Presumably the clanheads and their house guards would be allowed the full range of arms, whereas for most other folk there would be limits?
Ivinian culture (including Chelemby) is fundamentally different to feudal society. Their society is inherently a collection of clans; ultimate authority tends to be given to a person's clanhead (Valhakkar) rather than a centralised government under a king.
An Ivinian Kingdom is a collection of independant clans under the influence of the most powerfull clan. If a clan is strong enough, it can demand tribute from lesser clans (often with implied threat of force), naturally if the clan objects, there could be raids, skirmishes, piracy, war etc. A kingdom is run in a very similar fashion to a clan (with tributory clans) albeit on a substantially larger scale.
The actual structure of an Ivinian Kingdom can be rather fluid, particularly compared to the rigid formal sub-infeudination of a feudal kingdom. The big difference is that there is no formal obligation, a tributory clan doesn't have a formal requirement to provide military support to his overlord; if he doesn't provide support, there will be repercussions (usually violent in nature) from his overlord, providing of course he survives his current military problem and still has military domininace of the tributary clan.
This is roughly my take on Chelemby...
The Valhakkar is the ultimate authority in his lands. Noone, not even the king can tell him what to do on his land. Although there may be political, legal and other ramifications if his decisions impact on other Tia-Nalari clans. The right to carry weapons/armour etc is purely at the descretion of your Valhakkar.
Note: In Ivinian society, I take bearing arms to be carrying weapons and armour that can not legitmately be considered purely for self defence (eg: Handaxe, Shorkana, Dagger, Leather Armour etc).
Off the clan's direct holdings it varies somewhat. If you are on another clan's land, it is at the discretion of that Valhakkar; if you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan and have some peacefull legitmate reason to carry arms, you are generally ok. If you don't have the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan, you will likely be asked some rather difficult questions.
Legally, unless you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan (either a member of, or have the patronage of a Tia-Nalari clan), you are pretty much fair game for anyone who does. Basically you are at the descretion of every Tia-Nalari clansmen you come accross; most of whom will generally take exception to people being excessively armed unless there is some significant reason for you to carry weapons. (eg: body guard, caravan guard etc)
In any case, a clansmen's actions whilst on other lands will directly reflect their clan and valhakkar. If you cause problems, it causes problems with your clan; your valhakkar or his representatives will likely deal with it as they see fit.
One exception to this may be the regular military, who have right to carry arms regardless of their origin. Their behaviour reflects on their superiors and ultimately the King and Queen; interestingly, their behaviour may also reflect on their Tia-Nalari clan (if any)
An interesting question mark is the fighting orders attached to Agrikan and the Laranian orders in Chelemby. Do they:
1.Have special legal status to carry weapons? (effectly the religious order acts like a quasi Tia-Nalari clan) or
2. Would their right to carry weapons be inherited from a member's Tia Nalari clan?
If it is the former, then it is a viable means for non Tia-Nalari clansmen (and their clients) to carry arms.
If it is the second case, does it make the Tia-Nalari clan's Valhakkar more important than his religious superiors??
I suspect that it has never been clearly defined (after all religious fighting orders are a relatively new concept brought in with Larani and Agrikan worship); both may be valid in various mixes according to the individual situation. (which could make things very interesting)
Ivinian culture (including Chelemby) is fundamentally different to feudal society. Their society is inherently a collection of clans; ultimate authority tends to be given to a person's clanhead (Valhakkar) rather than a centralised government under a king.
An Ivinian Kingdom is a collection of independant clans under the influence of the most powerfull clan. If a clan is strong enough, it can demand tribute from lesser clans (often with implied threat of force), naturally if the clan objects, there could be raids, skirmishes, piracy, war etc. A kingdom is run in a very similar fashion to a clan (with tributory clans) albeit on a substantially larger scale.
The actual structure of an Ivinian Kingdom can be rather fluid, particularly compared to the rigid formal sub-infeudination of a feudal kingdom. The big difference is that there is no formal obligation, a tributory clan doesn't have a formal requirement to provide military support to his overlord; if he doesn't provide support, there will be repercussions (usually violent in nature) from his overlord, providing of course he survives his current military problem and still has military domininace of the tributary clan.
This is roughly my take on Chelemby...
The Valhakkar is the ultimate authority in his lands. Noone, not even the king can tell him what to do on his land. Although there may be political, legal and other ramifications if his decisions impact on other Tia-Nalari clans. The right to carry weapons/armour etc is purely at the descretion of your Valhakkar.
Note: In Ivinian society, I take bearing arms to be carrying weapons and armour that can not legitmately be considered purely for self defence (eg: Handaxe, Shorkana, Dagger, Leather Armour etc).
Off the clan's direct holdings it varies somewhat. If you are on another clan's land, it is at the discretion of that Valhakkar; if you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan and have some peacefull legitmate reason to carry arms, you are generally ok. If you don't have the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan, you will likely be asked some rather difficult questions.
Legally, unless you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan (either a member of, or have the patronage of a Tia-Nalari clan), you are pretty much fair game for anyone who does. Basically you are at the descretion of every Tia-Nalari clansmen you come accross; most of whom will generally take exception to people being excessively armed unless there is some significant reason for you to carry weapons. (eg: body guard, caravan guard etc)
In any case, a clansmen's actions whilst on other lands will directly reflect their clan and valhakkar. If you cause problems, it causes problems with your clan; your valhakkar or his representatives will likely deal with it as they see fit.
One exception to this may be the regular military, who have right to carry arms regardless of their origin. Their behaviour reflects on their superiors and ultimately the King and Queen; interestingly, their behaviour may also reflect on their Tia-Nalari clan (if any)
An interesting question mark is the fighting orders attached to Agrikan and the Laranian orders in Chelemby. Do they:
1.Have special legal status to carry weapons? (effectly the religious order acts like a quasi Tia-Nalari clan) or
2. Would their right to carry weapons be inherited from a member's Tia Nalari clan?
If it is the former, then it is a viable means for non Tia-Nalari clansmen (and their clients) to carry arms.
If it is the second case, does it make the Tia-Nalari clan's Valhakkar more important than his religious superiors??
I suspect that it has never been clearly defined (after all religious fighting orders are a relatively new concept brought in with Larani and Agrikan worship); both may be valid in various mixes according to the individual situation. (which could make things very interesting)
. . . especially when you consider the Panaga trilogy or 100 Bushels of Rye. 100 Bushels of Rye was set more than halfway through 720, but its events had no real impact on the timeline. Even the Panaga trilogy, which was epic in scope, didn't really impact the timeline too much unless the GM *allowed* it to do so (which would be, of course, his or her privilege).
Harn:Bloodline? Google-time . . . what a shame. I'd have loved to play a CRPG on Harn!
. . . especially when you consider the Panaga trilogy or 100 Bushels of Rye. 100 Bushels of Rye was set more than halfway through 720, but its events had no real impact on the timeline. Even the Panaga trilogy, which was epic in scope, didn't really impact the timeline too much unless the GM *allowed* it to do so (which would be, of course, his or her privilege).
Harn:Bloodline? Google-time . . . what a shame. I'd have loved to play a CRPG on Harn!
Well, the 'canon year' is tr720. I have always insisted on this. All of my environmental material has always been a 'snapshot' of (my canon) Kèthîra in tr720.
However, Allan is right in that when it comes to adventures, the bets are off; and this includes electronic content, computer games, etc.
By definition these kinds of product must be allowed more licence, because they are presumed to be 'action' undertaken in the course of play. They have to be based on my canon 'snapshot', but in theory, they can do whatever they like as long as they don't rewrite the snapshot itself by changing pre-tr720 events.
There are even cases in which we tinkered a bit with the pre-tr720 canon, as in Hârn:Bloodline which I wrote with Cameron Brown. Hârn:Bloodline had a wonderful 'backstory' stretching back to tr100 and gave players the ability to 'shape' early history... possibly even having the whole world destroyed before tr720... computer games are, perhaps a special case; it stands to reason that, if we let you fight a battle in the past, (or step on butterflies for that matter) you may well change the present (in fact I don't see how you could avoid it).
Well, the 'canon year' is tr720. I have always insisted on this. All of my environmental material has always been a 'snapshot' of (my canon) Kèthîra in tr720.
However, Allan is right in that when it comes to adventures, the bets are off; and this includes electronic content, computer games, etc.
By definition these kinds of product must be allowed more licence, because they are presumed to be 'action' undertaken in the course of play. They have to be based on my canon 'snapshot', but in theory, they can do whatever they like as long as they don't rewrite the snapshot itself by changing pre-tr720 events.
There are even cases in which we tinkered a bit with the pre-tr720 canon, as in Hârn:Bloodline which I wrote with Cameron Brown. Hârn:Bloodline had a wonderful 'backstory' stretching back to tr100 and gave players the ability to 'shape' early history... possibly even having the whole world destroyed before tr720... computer games are, perhaps a special case; it stands to reason that, if we let you fight a battle in the past, (or step on butterflies for that matter) you may well change the present (in fact I don't see how you could avoid it).
I always thought published material could go beyond 720, so long as it did not change any canon, at least in a major way. So they could publish adventures, but not were the King of Kanday dies etc.
I always thought published material could go beyond 720, so long as it did not change any canon, at least in a major way. So they could publish adventures, but not were the King of Kanday dies etc.
So Auran had a deal worked out in which they were going to be permitted to violate the original, cast-in-stone idea of *NEVER* advancing the Kethiran timeline past 720 T.R.? Boo, hiss . . .
So Auran had a deal worked out in which they were going to be permitted to violate the original, cast-in-stone idea of *NEVER* advancing the Kethiran timeline past 720 T.R.? Boo, hiss . . .
Yes they still open on the old computer, and no, different versions of acrobat. Newer on the new machine. I thought it might be the memory stick, as its also old, I shall have to try an open them from the stick and see if that works. I left it at home, so later today.
Thanks
Yes they still open on the old computer, and no, different versions of acrobat. Newer on the new machine. I thought it might be the memory stick, as its also old, I shall have to try an open them from the stick and see if that works. I left it at home, so later today.
Thanks
The enigmatic and dangerous realm of Emélrenè is revealed in glorious detail. This realm is like no other in all of Venârivè, and is fully explored in this module.
Well, it really looks to me as if there is something wrong with how you are moving the files rather than with the files themselves.
Are the two computers in question networked? Can you move the files that way?
If you can, copying the good files to a non-volatile medium (CD?) might be a good idea?
Dan
I don't have any gaming going at the moment.
But I have been researching Ivinian culture alot. Coming from a non-scandanavian country, I have found that the Ivinian society dynamics are fundamentally different to feudal kindgoms.
I have been working on a fanon for Tawheim (Orbaal) for a while. The Valhakkar has travelled widely and brought the customs of many lands to his court. I have been looking into possibilities and many of these likely come from other Ivinian cultures (eg: Chelemby, Harbaal, Selbenvaal)
With that said, it could be argued that Chelemby is a special case. It has an Ivinian foundation, but has elements from various neibouring cultures (largely feudal).
I have been looking at elements to include in possible campaigns. One that I was thinking was the players escorting one of the clan's Husgaren. This Husgaren is a key advisor for the Valhakkar. So will visit various Nalards, Kanthusen (trading posts), travel on ships, conducting diplomatic/political missions, explore possible new markets etc (naturally there will be those who oppose clan activies for various reasons).
When you design a campaign in Chelemby, don't forget the clan ties to other branches of the clan in other countries such as Harbaal, Ivinia, Orbaal, Quaphor etc. They can add alot.
Peter
Dan
I don't have any gaming going at the moment.
But I have been researching Ivinian culture alot. Coming from a non-scandanavian country, I have found that the Ivinian society dynamics are fundamentally different to feudal kindgoms.
I have been working on a fanon for Tawheim (Orbaal) for a while. The Valhakkar has travelled widely and brought the customs of many lands to his court. I have been looking into possibilities and many of these likely come from other Ivinian cultures (eg: Chelemby, Harbaal, Selbenvaal)
With that said, it could be argued that Chelemby is a special case. It has an Ivinian foundation, but has elements from various neibouring cultures (largely feudal).
I have been looking at elements to include in possible campaigns. One that I was thinking was the players escorting one of the clan's Husgaren. This Husgaren is a key advisor for the Valhakkar. So will visit various Nalards, Kanthusen (trading posts), travel on ships, conducting diplomatic/political missions, explore possible new markets etc (naturally there will be those who oppose clan activies for various reasons).
When you design a campaign in Chelemby, don't forget the clan ties to other branches of the clan in other countries such as Harbaal, Ivinia, Orbaal, Quaphor etc. They can add alot.
Peter
Cheers, Peter. I was thinking as well that the nature of each particular relationship would vary a lot.
After writing those questions, I found an answer to one of them: in the Koladis and Evanekin articles, it says that businesses pay 5% to their sponsoring clan, instead of guild dues (plus 5% to the local government). I imagine Chelemby city would be the same.
As an aside, is or was your game (either as player or GM) set in Chelemby? If so, I'd be interested to hear what the campaign involved.
Dan.
Cheers, Peter. I was thinking as well that the nature of each particular relationship would vary a lot.
After writing those questions, I found an answer to one of them: in the Koladis and Evanekin articles, it says that businesses pay 5% to their sponsoring clan, instead of guild dues (plus 5% to the local government). I imagine Chelemby city would be the same.
As an aside, is or was your game (either as player or GM) set in Chelemby? If so, I'd be interested to hear what the campaign involved.
Dan.
Interesting thoughts...
naturally with the individual (informal) nature of the client-clan relationships, there is alot of scope for variation, but here is my thoughts
Craftsmen/Clansmen in towns/cities are an interesting case; I would expect they could be considered the same as a guilded franchise on Tia-Nalari clans (The clans collects a tenth of gross revenue). They have the protection of the Tia-Nalari clan and in many cases the franchise itself is possible due to the support of the clan. (This is much the same as guild taxes in feudal states)
In addition Craftsmen/Clansmen would pay the various taxes required to the local testrad who governs the location.
Remember Tia-Nalari clans are on the myriad of Testrads (councils) that govern individual aspects of all aspects of Chelembian government. Thus there can be of political activity behind the scenes, should a Tia-Nalari clan wants a particular decision. The more important the decision, the more influence a Tia-nalari clan (and their Allies) will bring to bear.
Sponsored clansmen will also benefit economically. Effectively being able to buy "wholesale" from other clansmen (craftsmen, farmers, mercantylers or whatever) from both the Tia-Nalari clan, plus other Tia-Nalari clans in the same trading alliance.
It is also worth remembering that Tia-Nalari clans who hold concessions, have a significant advantage with trade. Not only to they avoid import duties, but they also avoid bonding and hawking fees.
I believe the individual holds a franchise not the clan. However if he is on clan land he needs clan approval, and if it is on common land he needs Testrad approval. The Tia-Nalari clan can influence a Testrad; but more inportantly, the Valhakkar can remove their Tia-Nalari protection of the individual which considerably changes his legal status. I suspect a clansmen will do whatever they can to remain on good terms with his Valhakkar.
If the Tia-Nalari clan holds a concession. There will also be potentially a standing demand for goods from the clan's mercantylers who will consolidate goods in preparation for the next shipment.
Other clans in the trade alliance will benefit economically from Kanthusen (trading posts), concessionaries and ships from other alliance members.
as far as religious clans. Generally religion is an individual thing and up to the individual adherant (who will generally pay 10% of his gross income as a tithe).
for example:
about 10% of chelembians worship Peoni; each of these will generally pay 10% of their gross income. Similarly for Halea (10%), Larani (5%), Agrik (5%)
This can vary somewhat, for example, Peonians are largely rural farmers, whilst Haleans are middle class townsfolk.
There is an interesting point will be some adherants who will worship (or at least give lip service to) multiple dietes.
Also Sarajinian tithes will be distibuted among the various religious clans; Agrikan support will be split among the 3 different Agrikan religious orders.
In addition, most most of the chelembian Haleans will be from clans Ekatriasa and Hlandes; most Agrikans will come from clans Paserin and Noordsen.
It is also worth remembering that Agrikans, Laranians and Haleans will have a relatively small number of temples, whereas Peoni and Sarajin will have large number of smaller churches.
I hope this helps...
Interesting thoughts...
naturally with the individual (informal) nature of the client-clan relationships, there is alot of scope for variation, but here is my thoughts
Craftsmen/Clansmen in towns/cities are an interesting case; I would expect they could be considered the same as a guilded franchise on Tia-Nalari clans (The clans collects a tenth of gross revenue). They have the protection of the Tia-Nalari clan and in many cases the franchise itself is possible due to the support of the clan. (This is much the same as guild taxes in feudal states)
In addition Craftsmen/Clansmen would pay the various taxes required to the local testrad who governs the location.
Remember Tia-Nalari clans are on the myriad of Testrads (councils) that govern individual aspects of all aspects of Chelembian government. Thus there can be of political activity behind the scenes, should a Tia-Nalari clan wants a particular decision. The more important the decision, the more influence a Tia-nalari clan (and their Allies) will bring to bear.
Sponsored clansmen will also benefit economically. Effectively being able to buy "wholesale" from other clansmen (craftsmen, farmers, mercantylers or whatever) from both the Tia-Nalari clan, plus other Tia-Nalari clans in the same trading alliance.
It is also worth remembering that Tia-Nalari clans who hold concessions, have a significant advantage with trade. Not only to they avoid import duties, but they also avoid bonding and hawking fees.
I believe the individual holds a franchise not the clan. However if he is on clan land he needs clan approval, and if it is on common land he needs Testrad approval. The Tia-Nalari clan can influence a Testrad; but more inportantly, the Valhakkar can remove their Tia-Nalari protection of the individual which considerably changes his legal status. I suspect a clansmen will do whatever they can to remain on good terms with his Valhakkar.
If the Tia-Nalari clan holds a concession. There will also be potentially a standing demand for goods from the clan's mercantylers who will consolidate goods in preparation for the next shipment.
Other clans in the trade alliance will benefit economically from Kanthusen (trading posts), concessionaries and ships from other alliance members.
as far as religious clans. Generally religion is an individual thing and up to the individual adherant (who will generally pay 10% of his gross income as a tithe).
for example:
about 10% of chelembians worship Peoni; each of these will generally pay 10% of their gross income. Similarly for Halea (10%), Larani (5%), Agrik (5%)
This can vary somewhat, for example, Peonians are largely rural farmers, whilst Haleans are middle class townsfolk.
There is an interesting point will be some adherants who will worship (or at least give lip service to) multiple dietes.
Also Sarajinian tithes will be distibuted among the various religious clans; Agrikan support will be split among the 3 different Agrikan religious orders.
In addition, most most of the chelembian Haleans will be from clans Ekatriasa and Hlandes; most Agrikans will come from clans Paserin and Noordsen.
It is also worth remembering that Agrikans, Laranians and Haleans will have a relatively small number of temples, whereas Peoni and Sarajin will have large number of smaller churches.
I hope this helps...
Essentially, the material in the Tapestry Saga was adventure based. It described plots and characters and drew on existing material as to where these adventures took place.
The series of adventures were deliberately written over a 20 year period. This was mailnly due to a discussion that was held in the early design stage that came to the opinion that characters in most RPGs have an incredible amount of adventures in a short time frame. Of course, this is artificially generated by the game and the characters wanting to keep the adventure going. Nobody wants to look after their farm holdings for 5 years or so after slaying a few dragons.
In keeping with the more believable environment of Harn, we wanted the GM to take a guiding hand and, when one part of the saga was complete, the players would be told that x years have gone by, before introducing hooks into the next part of the adventure. We were even devising a set of tables to generate character-related events that happened during the period of down-time.
As Robin points out, an adventure, by its very nature must be able to progress beyond 720. The Tapestry material did not create new historical events or generate new Gods etc. It drew off existing canon. However, in any game a GM and/or the players may be responsible for generating major changes in the world. That becomes their own personal verion of Harn (I think Robin refers to these as p-Harns).
On another note, while developing the Tapestry series, it was hoped that we would be able to add in a few 'easter eggs' drawn from material that Robin has not released. A few new things to whet the appetite of fans. But...alas, corporate problems arose and the Harn project was abandonned. I was moved on to d20 modules for another year or so before Auran decided it didn't need creative writers anymore - just programmers and artists.
Regards,
Keith
Essentially, the material in the Tapestry Saga was adventure based. It described plots and characters and drew on existing material as to where these adventures took place.
The series of adventures were deliberately written over a 20 year period. This was mailnly due to a discussion that was held in the early design stage that came to the opinion that characters in most RPGs have an incredible amount of adventures in a short time frame. Of course, this is artificially generated by the game and the characters wanting to keep the adventure going. Nobody wants to look after their farm holdings for 5 years or so after slaying a few dragons.
In keeping with the more believable environment of Harn, we wanted the GM to take a guiding hand and, when one part of the saga was complete, the players would be told that x years have gone by, before introducing hooks into the next part of the adventure. We were even devising a set of tables to generate character-related events that happened during the period of down-time.
As Robin points out, an adventure, by its very nature must be able to progress beyond 720. The Tapestry material did not create new historical events or generate new Gods etc. It drew off existing canon. However, in any game a GM and/or the players may be responsible for generating major changes in the world. That becomes their own personal verion of Harn (I think Robin refers to these as p-Harns).
On another note, while developing the Tapestry series, it was hoped that we would be able to add in a few 'easter eggs' drawn from material that Robin has not released. A few new things to whet the appetite of fans. But...alas, corporate problems arose and the Harn project was abandonned. I was moved on to d20 modules for another year or so before Auran decided it didn't need creative writers anymore - just programmers and artists.
Regards,
Keith
Dan and Peter
What you have both raised and discussed sounds about right.
Chélemby is an evolving cultural mixture, so it has elements of Ivínian and southwestern 'feudal' culture.
On the nalâri (freeholds), the rights (and responsibilities!) regarding bearing arms will be dictated by the válhakâr (clandhead) and the thrángaad (ruling council), much as Peter has suggested. Generally, members of a tia-nalári (noble) clan will expect to be able to bear some arms; but you would only expect the válhakâr, their immediate circle (the 'válhakøren') and the husgâranen (huscarls) to be significantly armed most of the time.
In the towns, in the national reserve (wilderness) and on the royal highways, the rule of the Nálstrad (parliament) and the Crown apply, as Daniel has suggested, and probably in the way he has suggested.
Cheers
Jeremy
---------------------
Fástred al Beréma,
Rówanti al Sávè-k’nôr
Dan and Peter
What you have both raised and discussed sounds about right.
Chélemby is an evolving cultural mixture, so it has elements of Ivínian and southwestern 'feudal' culture.
On the nalâri (freeholds), the rights (and responsibilities!) regarding bearing arms will be dictated by the válhakâr (clandhead) and the thrángaad (ruling council), much as Peter has suggested. Generally, members of a tia-nalári (noble) clan will expect to be able to bear some arms; but you would only expect the válhakâr, their immediate circle (the 'válhakøren') and the husgâranen (huscarls) to be significantly armed most of the time.
In the towns, in the national reserve (wilderness) and on the royal highways, the rule of the Nálstrad (parliament) and the Crown apply, as Daniel has suggested, and probably in the way he has suggested.
Cheers
Jeremy
---------------------
Fástred al Beréma,
Rówanti al Sávè-k’nôr
Thanks, Peter, that is helpful. As I've previously focussed nearly all my attention on Kaldor, the different social structure of Chelemby will take some getting used to.
I imagine that in places under Nastrad (or is it royal) authority, ie, Chelemby city, Koladis and Evanekin, there are certain conventions on bearing arms that are followed? Presumably the clanheads and their house guards would be allowed the full range of arms, whereas for most other folk there would be limits?
Dan.
Thanks, Peter, that is helpful. As I've previously focussed nearly all my attention on Kaldor, the different social structure of Chelemby will take some getting used to.
I imagine that in places under Nastrad (or is it royal) authority, ie, Chelemby city, Koladis and Evanekin, there are certain conventions on bearing arms that are followed? Presumably the clanheads and their house guards would be allowed the full range of arms, whereas for most other folk there would be limits?
Dan.
Thats is a good question...
Ivinian culture (including Chelemby) is fundamentally different to feudal society. Their society is inherently a collection of clans; ultimate authority tends to be given to a person's clanhead (Valhakkar) rather than a centralised government under a king.
An Ivinian Kingdom is a collection of independant clans under the influence of the most powerfull clan. If a clan is strong enough, it can demand tribute from lesser clans (often with implied threat of force), naturally if the clan objects, there could be raids, skirmishes, piracy, war etc. A kingdom is run in a very similar fashion to a clan (with tributory clans) albeit on a substantially larger scale.
The actual structure of an Ivinian Kingdom can be rather fluid, particularly compared to the rigid formal sub-infeudination of a feudal kingdom. The big difference is that there is no formal obligation, a tributory clan doesn't have a formal requirement to provide military support to his overlord; if he doesn't provide support, there will be repercussions (usually violent in nature) from his overlord, providing of course he survives his current military problem and still has military domininace of the tributary clan.
This is roughly my take on Chelemby...
The Valhakkar is the ultimate authority in his lands. Noone, not even the king can tell him what to do on his land. Although there may be political, legal and other ramifications if his decisions impact on other Tia-Nalari clans. The right to carry weapons/armour etc is purely at the descretion of your Valhakkar.
Note: In Ivinian society, I take bearing arms to be carrying weapons and armour that can not legitmately be considered purely for self defence (eg: Handaxe, Shorkana, Dagger, Leather Armour etc).
Off the clan's direct holdings it varies somewhat. If you are on another clan's land, it is at the discretion of that Valhakkar; if you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan and have some peacefull legitmate reason to carry arms, you are generally ok. If you don't have the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan, you will likely be asked some rather difficult questions.
Legally, unless you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan (either a member of, or have the patronage of a Tia-Nalari clan), you are pretty much fair game for anyone who does. Basically you are at the descretion of every Tia-Nalari clansmen you come accross; most of whom will generally take exception to people being excessively armed unless there is some significant reason for you to carry weapons. (eg: body guard, caravan guard etc)
In any case, a clansmen's actions whilst on other lands will directly reflect their clan and valhakkar. If you cause problems, it causes problems with your clan; your valhakkar or his representatives will likely deal with it as they see fit.
One exception to this may be the regular military, who have right to carry arms regardless of their origin. Their behaviour reflects on their superiors and ultimately the King and Queen; interestingly, their behaviour may also reflect on their Tia-Nalari clan (if any)
An interesting question mark is the fighting orders attached to Agrikan and the Laranian orders in Chelemby. Do they:
1.Have special legal status to carry weapons? (effectly the religious order acts like a quasi Tia-Nalari clan) or
2. Would their right to carry weapons be inherited from a member's Tia Nalari clan?
If it is the former, then it is a viable means for non Tia-Nalari clansmen (and their clients) to carry arms.
If it is the second case, does it make the Tia-Nalari clan's Valhakkar more important than his religious superiors??
I suspect that it has never been clearly defined (after all religious fighting orders are a relatively new concept brought in with Larani and Agrikan worship); both may be valid in various mixes according to the individual situation. (which could make things very interesting)
I hope this helps...
Thats is a good question...
Ivinian culture (including Chelemby) is fundamentally different to feudal society. Their society is inherently a collection of clans; ultimate authority tends to be given to a person's clanhead (Valhakkar) rather than a centralised government under a king.
An Ivinian Kingdom is a collection of independant clans under the influence of the most powerfull clan. If a clan is strong enough, it can demand tribute from lesser clans (often with implied threat of force), naturally if the clan objects, there could be raids, skirmishes, piracy, war etc. A kingdom is run in a very similar fashion to a clan (with tributory clans) albeit on a substantially larger scale.
The actual structure of an Ivinian Kingdom can be rather fluid, particularly compared to the rigid formal sub-infeudination of a feudal kingdom. The big difference is that there is no formal obligation, a tributory clan doesn't have a formal requirement to provide military support to his overlord; if he doesn't provide support, there will be repercussions (usually violent in nature) from his overlord, providing of course he survives his current military problem and still has military domininace of the tributary clan.
This is roughly my take on Chelemby...
The Valhakkar is the ultimate authority in his lands. Noone, not even the king can tell him what to do on his land. Although there may be political, legal and other ramifications if his decisions impact on other Tia-Nalari clans. The right to carry weapons/armour etc is purely at the descretion of your Valhakkar.
Note: In Ivinian society, I take bearing arms to be carrying weapons and armour that can not legitmately be considered purely for self defence (eg: Handaxe, Shorkana, Dagger, Leather Armour etc).
Off the clan's direct holdings it varies somewhat. If you are on another clan's land, it is at the discretion of that Valhakkar; if you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan and have some peacefull legitmate reason to carry arms, you are generally ok. If you don't have the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan, you will likely be asked some rather difficult questions.
Legally, unless you are under the protection of a Tia-Nalari clan (either a member of, or have the patronage of a Tia-Nalari clan), you are pretty much fair game for anyone who does. Basically you are at the descretion of every Tia-Nalari clansmen you come accross; most of whom will generally take exception to people being excessively armed unless there is some significant reason for you to carry weapons. (eg: body guard, caravan guard etc)
In any case, a clansmen's actions whilst on other lands will directly reflect their clan and valhakkar. If you cause problems, it causes problems with your clan; your valhakkar or his representatives will likely deal with it as they see fit.
One exception to this may be the regular military, who have right to carry arms regardless of their origin. Their behaviour reflects on their superiors and ultimately the King and Queen; interestingly, their behaviour may also reflect on their Tia-Nalari clan (if any)
An interesting question mark is the fighting orders attached to Agrikan and the Laranian orders in Chelemby. Do they:
1.Have special legal status to carry weapons? (effectly the religious order acts like a quasi Tia-Nalari clan) or
2. Would their right to carry weapons be inherited from a member's Tia Nalari clan?
If it is the former, then it is a viable means for non Tia-Nalari clansmen (and their clients) to carry arms.
If it is the second case, does it make the Tia-Nalari clan's Valhakkar more important than his religious superiors??
I suspect that it has never been clearly defined (after all religious fighting orders are a relatively new concept brought in with Larani and Agrikan worship); both may be valid in various mixes according to the individual situation. (which could make things very interesting)
I hope this helps...
. . . especially when you consider the Panaga trilogy or 100 Bushels of Rye. 100 Bushels of Rye was set more than halfway through 720, but its events had no real impact on the timeline. Even the Panaga trilogy, which was epic in scope, didn't really impact the timeline too much unless the GM *allowed* it to do so (which would be, of course, his or her privilege).
Harn:Bloodline? Google-time . . . what a shame. I'd have loved to play a CRPG on Harn!
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Old style heraldry: Sable, the pale argent.
New style heraldry: Oreo, resting on edge.
. . . especially when you consider the Panaga trilogy or 100 Bushels of Rye. 100 Bushels of Rye was set more than halfway through 720, but its events had no real impact on the timeline. Even the Panaga trilogy, which was epic in scope, didn't really impact the timeline too much unless the GM *allowed* it to do so (which would be, of course, his or her privilege).
Harn:Bloodline? Google-time . . . what a shame. I'd have loved to play a CRPG on Harn!
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Old style heraldry: Sable, the pale argent.
New style heraldry: Oreo, resting on edge.
Well, the 'canon year' is tr720. I have always insisted on this. All of my environmental material has always been a 'snapshot' of (my canon) Kèthîra in tr720.
However, Allan is right in that when it comes to adventures, the bets are off; and this includes electronic content, computer games, etc.
By definition these kinds of product must be allowed more licence, because they are presumed to be 'action' undertaken in the course of play. They have to be based on my canon 'snapshot', but in theory, they can do whatever they like as long as they don't rewrite the snapshot itself by changing pre-tr720 events.
There are even cases in which we tinkered a bit with the pre-tr720 canon, as in Hârn:Bloodline which I wrote with Cameron Brown. Hârn:Bloodline had a wonderful 'backstory' stretching back to tr100 and gave players the ability to 'shape' early history... possibly even having the whole world destroyed before tr720... computer games are, perhaps a special case; it stands to reason that, if we let you fight a battle in the past, (or step on butterflies for that matter) you may well change the present (in fact I don't see how you could avoid it).
Well, the 'canon year' is tr720. I have always insisted on this. All of my environmental material has always been a 'snapshot' of (my canon) Kèthîra in tr720.
However, Allan is right in that when it comes to adventures, the bets are off; and this includes electronic content, computer games, etc.
By definition these kinds of product must be allowed more licence, because they are presumed to be 'action' undertaken in the course of play. They have to be based on my canon 'snapshot', but in theory, they can do whatever they like as long as they don't rewrite the snapshot itself by changing pre-tr720 events.
There are even cases in which we tinkered a bit with the pre-tr720 canon, as in Hârn:Bloodline which I wrote with Cameron Brown. Hârn:Bloodline had a wonderful 'backstory' stretching back to tr100 and gave players the ability to 'shape' early history... possibly even having the whole world destroyed before tr720... computer games are, perhaps a special case; it stands to reason that, if we let you fight a battle in the past, (or step on butterflies for that matter) you may well change the present (in fact I don't see how you could avoid it).
I always thought published material could go beyond 720, so long as it did not change any canon, at least in a major way. So they could publish adventures, but not were the King of Kanday dies etc.
I always thought published material could go beyond 720, so long as it did not change any canon, at least in a major way. So they could publish adventures, but not were the King of Kanday dies etc.
So Auran had a deal worked out in which they were going to be permitted to violate the original, cast-in-stone idea of *NEVER* advancing the Kethiran timeline past 720 T.R.? Boo, hiss . . .
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Old-style heraldry: Sable, the pale argent.
New-style heraldry: Oreo, resting on edge.
So Auran had a deal worked out in which they were going to be permitted to violate the original, cast-in-stone idea of *NEVER* advancing the Kethiran timeline past 720 T.R.? Boo, hiss . . .
----------
Old-style heraldry: Sable, the pale argent.
New-style heraldry: Oreo, resting on edge.
Yes they still open on the old computer, and no, different versions of acrobat. Newer on the new machine. I thought it might be the memory stick, as its also old, I shall have to try an open them from the stick and see if that works. I left it at home, so later today.
Thanks
Yes they still open on the old computer, and no, different versions of acrobat. Newer on the new machine. I thought it might be the memory stick, as its also old, I shall have to try an open them from the stick and see if that works. I left it at home, so later today.
Thanks