New direction in products

I'm sorry you don't like the "new style".

You concerns are rather non-specific - what in particular don't you like?

Regards

Jeremy

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Fástred na Beréma,
Rowánti na Sávè-k’nôr

Sorry for the abrupt reply to start this off, but I was really angry and didn't want to post any specifics at the time and say the wrong thing.

Firstly the shock from going from the old Harn style to D20 isn't good. The reason people like harn is 90% the Harnic style of maps and it's attatched material.

Ledenheim
=========

P18 It's all in BOLD, why?
P26 Don't like that style of map, bring back the old way.
P27,28,29 etc. I never liked photos in modules of fantasy settings. They just break the essence and atmosphere. Maybe just me...
P38-40 Again BOLD, pic on p38 is great yet Shield distracts from the focus on page. Subtle art, "bang text" and then glary Shield, huh. Too much variation on the one page. On page 40 the shields, well it's the shadow that makes it seem weird.
P45,46, 48, 53, 54 They are very fitting artworks for this book.
P49 This is where these new map style shine, they actually fit as a satellite atlas map!
P50 The map is almost as good as the old style and fits for it need here. Except for the text needs to be seperate from the background and all it needs is edging. Fussy I know but when you use this new style with shadows and then apply black text over the top, it's just wrong.
P51 Even though the satellite pic worked on P49, scale doesn't show enough detail even though it's closer in than the previous shots. Needs to be a uniform scale if you are going to use orbital satellite shots. Yet this particular target is way to small for use here. Maybe use same scale for each of these, then have a zoom box overlay showing a closer shot of the target?
P56 Now this map is a contrast on the new style except in the opposite extreme. Not enough definition of the details.

Love the cover artwork btw but please use a more subtle header or go back to B&W it's simply too rich.

Koladis
=======

P5 Purple ocean, huh? (other than that fine here)
P9,10 This style works here but
P11-13 not here. B&W drawings are way better. This just gives a feel of clipart that you bought at a flee-market and thought you'd fill up the space.
P16 YUCK
P17 Why the effect overlay, it was fine as it was. Although I would've cleaned up the border better, looks like it was cut out of a magazine and pasted here to fill a spot.
P18 through P45 (All the maps) ~ NO COMMENT!!!! Kids might be reading this
P39, 41 Great use of this style. (minor pick, the fields look indented and out of character)

Again, the header.

Chelemby
========

P6 YAH, no purple. That's better
P12 Even though not a favourite of the style, this fits well here.
P17, 19 These fit really well into the feel of the book, great.

Now again the damn header, these are horrid to print in either colour or B&W.
There is enough of the pics spread out through the book to make it ALL balance so you don't notice most of them.
I could point out the same as above, but I think you'll start seeing what I mean.

Evanekin
========

Same as previous but I'll make a few points.
P25 The heraldry is raster, yet in the above books they're vector. And there's too much detail (I think) anyway. Think of how these would be painted and used, on a battlefield I don't think they're realistic of "used" shields. Maybe a minor thing, it's just they're out of character.

Atlas Kelestia
==============

Now this is where this new style really shines, well done.

P19, minor error on minimap. The "Shkn G5" is displayed in middle box.

Why the blank pages?
Details pages, maybe just me but again black and white is good here with greyed highlights instead of yellow.
The grid covered squares "clickable" map on the cover is a great idea. I would however liked to have seen a full side by side of the region on one big map as a contents page.
Also maybe you could do something with that little 3x3 minimap too. Around it's edges you could have a jump back to full map page?

Chelemby Interactive
====================

Again this really shines as a full glossy map, again shows what can be better.

Faults, white overlays don't really work though I must admit not sure how to suggest on this one.
Consessions & Townhouse names need text edging to make it stand out better.
Love the idea of the historic bits, however (I know more work) it would be better to have a new page for each without the city and even what the land looked like before strip mining ;)

Yet another good example of how this style can push the envelope further!

Harn Regional Interactive
=========================

This is a tough one. Definately for prining and not for screen viewing.
It's good overall until you need to zoom over 200%.
This is where you see alot of problems, again text has no outline from the background.
Many places where text overlays other text, ie. Shreve/Wool.

Things like the trade details should be more like the Political layers imho. Maybe including the text as a cutout from the zone colour?

As for the Political layers, just like the city history, you just sometimes need that detail on another map instead. For if I turn all the details on, turn off the Vegetation & Relief, then I get alot of white text on white with no landscape outline or the missing bits of Harn. ie. Lake Benath and the Ocean areas.
Then again turning everything on without the Vegetation & Relief gives a nice clear overview map for a data information resource. All that is needed would be the addition of a coastline and maybe the option of Kingdoms. Along with seperate Trade Routes and Resource areas?

Kethira
=======

I suppose this is the biggest disappointment of all, there's alot of info here but again it's all at world scale.

Try getting the details you need from a pixelated raster picture!

That aside, what should have been a boon for a GM to apply more detail to their game has been taken away by the "vague" attempt of such an Atlas. It just makes me even more confused to the reason this was released in the first place.

Are you wanting to give us scientific based projections, or a rough guidestick?
If intended as a scientific projection of data for further use, then this MUST be added to other maps (see Atlas Kelestia) so that we get a clear and defined picture of the world.
If a yardstick, then what was the point of giving us "rough" Tectonics or Wind patterns?

Part of the Atlas describes historic peoples and language Families. I would have preferred a book on just that. Hell even some nice hooks on adventures to "uncover" that info by making the players feel like Indy for a day ;)

As for the night skies part, B&W prinable please. We then also find alien worlds and using Godstones for star travel, huh.

Okay I get the princples behind some of these choices, but since it's taken how long to publish a little of harn here and there, and then mashing bit and pieces from there, oh and add another from here too. It seems overwhelming for a new comer to grasp, yet try and use Harn and explain that to another "possible" role player convert.

Now don't get me wrong in bashing the whole harn, I'm just more confused now about quite alot. We have a huge jigsaw puzzle here although all the pieces look like they mix, somehow.

I just don't get how one is supposed to use this world if you spend more time finding what you need than playing. God it reminds me of 2nd edition D&D, when all you wanted to do is go back to 1st ed. because at least you got to play.

So you are probably asking yourself why I'm here and even bothering. Simple, like back in '83 Hârn has alot of potential and WAY TOO many people do not know about this setting. I love the whole atmosphere and "maybe" a chance to play in it before I get to 80, or worse.

Maybe too many people have pushed NRC for too long and distracted him from getting things done, now that's sad if it is the case. Yet I'm reminded of a friend who past on many years ago, I got the chance to continue her legacy and keep her dream alive. It was hard and I hope it turned out the way she had wanted it to. I will never know, yet I do know that her name is attatched to that dream and it lives in print and is a vibrant magazine today as if she did it herself without steering from her goal.

I have no intention of seeing Mr. NRC loose his world, hell if you ask me it has all the potential to tranform way beyond a mere small boys club role playing setting. I just hope that one day I get the chance to play in it, maybe an MMO would push things along.

I just hate seeing potential, good ideas and dreams faulter!

David

Some of the issues you have raised relate to the earlier products (Evanekin, Koladis etc), and these issues have (as you have noted) been addressed in later products.

Others, I simply don't understand (such as your comment about certain pages being all bold - this is simply not the case and I'm confused by your comment).

I'm pleased to see that in many cases, you actually approve of the artwork, and the maps, while of course there are things you'd like to see improved.

We continue to work to improve our products, and appreciate the feedback.

Regards

Jeremy

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Fástred na Beréma,
Rowánti na Sávè-k’nôr

So if these are earlier products, it makes me even more worried about the consistency of the products. As I said, go back to the "Original" product design, these are far superior!

Aside from the fact of the age between each document, why was the mould broken.

As for the bold in the PDF. The text is using the font "Bold = KorinnaITCbyBT-Regular 10pt" in both pages on P17 and 18. Both are supposed to be regular so then why does it look like this;

http://www.shealladh.com/images/Bold_comparison.jpg

I'm baffled by the page tbh.

As I mentioned in my email, I only wish to see these products improve and move to greater things. Like everyone that has ever come across harn, it beautiful world that's addictive and you just want more.

Knowing the current road of events, would something like Open Source (think something like D20 but with a licence) help or hinder the world. I always love building worlds, yet here is a perfect world full of many things and all it needs is a few more modules. But that's not my agenda here, hell as long as I put food on my table, I do these things for the challenge, ie. GMing.

The "original" design was not something Robin ever liked, and we won't be going "back" to it.

But we do appreciate honest feedback and suggestions for improvement.

I have no idea why on your computer one page looks bolder than another, because it doesn't on mine and I've tested to several others. Its very strange. What version of Adobe Acrobat are you using?

Regards

Jeremy

---------------------
Fástred na Beréma,
Rowánti na Sávè-k’nôr

Fair enough, I guessed that with the various styles used in the previous products and hence my first post.

Thank you, never helps if you rant without giving an honest opinion. Helps no one. I just get frustrated when things change too much. Yet that doesn't mean we have to stay old style without improving and meeting the current expectations of new players.

It's bizare, I'm using Acrobat Pro v9.0. Maybe it's something to do with the view onscreen, ie. smoothing or some other stupid addition from Adobe. They change their setup more than I've had hot dinners lol.

I have to admit that I also liked the original design a little better than the current one, but only because of the 'rustic true map' feel about them. I can see why the newer direction would be preferred by some, and certainly why it is easier for design.

Whatever the format, I will pick up Venârivè when it releases. (hint hint!) ;-)

Some of the specific complaints are valid and I agree with them. Much of the problem may be in not having a graphic designer regularly involved.

But saying one prefers the "old style" or the "old design" is not exactly helpful, as that other company changed its formatting, etc., of Harnica over the years. For example, I can think of at least three differing local map styles that they used between 1985 and 2005, one of which was pretty clunky.

I will also note that

Ledenheim p.51. The scale of this is the same as those on p.49. Unfortunately, the location is more open... and perhaps "less interesting"?

Ledenheim p.56. This is supposed to be a poetic map that can be handed out to the players. Perhaps it needed to be labeled as such?

Koladis. Not sure about your page numbering here. You seem to be saying yuck about a couple images that I find non-offensive, while saying nothing about an image that I do dislike.

Heraldry. You comment about the raster heraldry in Evanekin but refer to vector heraldry in "the above books", presumably Ledenheim, Koladis, and Chelemby. However, the heraldry in Koladis and Chelemby was also rasterized. The raster heraldry used the same basic art library that appeared in numerous prior publications going back to the 1980s, so if there's too much detail in them, then this is not a new thing to KP.

Kethira. Are you arguing that some of the maps are not useful, or that you don't like the style, or both? Many of the maps here were previously published in alternative form in HarnWorld, such as the tectonics and wind maps that you specifically cite.

Re Open Source. I don't think that would help or hinder. There's already a fair number of people doing fanon, and it doesn't seem to me that whether or not there is an official Hanic open source license is going to change the number of such people. The biggest problem perhaps is that the people working on fanon seem to be focusing on the island of Harn. (And all too often writing the equivalent of dissertations about small topics.) Very few seem to go off-isle.

rbs wrote: The biggest problem perhaps is that the people working on fanon seem to be focusing on the island of Harn. -- -- Very few seem to go off-isle.

We need some kind of good base in order to invade the mainland big time. The old HarnWorld gave little actual information. Going deeper has so often meant copy-pasting from RW, without harnifying the information in between. Perhaps Venarive will remedy this problem, perhaps not.

In any case, for me "going mainland" usually means I'll continue creating my own medievalesque fantasy world, not Hârn.

And all of this said, there are already two parallel Trierzons to start with.

rbs wrote: (And all too often writing the equivalent of dissertations about small topics.)

For me Hârn has always been about the small topics, about role-playing in real-time with real and little issues. Mud between the toes. So, I much like what's being written, when it's well made & adds to our understanding. Hârn is perhaps the only commercially available fantasy world allowing for this approach. Take that away, and there's nothing specific in Hârn for me.

-ile