a) While it's certainly hilly, the particular coloration denoting "mountainous" is actually quite sparse and discontinous, in this particular area. And the existing Salt Route already goes through quite a bit of hilly terrain, although it admittedly stays to non-hilly patches whenever possible.

b) While the map in the Tulwyn article shows the "lead tribe" of Kirandar holding the area including the first stretch of the route, the detail map of Tharda shows quite a few Corani settlements along the coast through there, extending quite a bit past the semi-circular "Tulwyn-Free Zone" (directly around Firis itself) that's seen on the Tulwyn map. The new route would pass through the narrowest extent of the Kirandar range (~7 miles), then through the middle of the Tuga (~20 miles) and Wylagor (~12 miles) ranges, then finally through the very tip (~3 miles) of the Targon range. While that's ~42 miles (through four tribal ranges), its still only about a third as long as the ~125 miles (through eight tribal ranges) that it already crosses to reach the same point. And it avoids the Gozyda (~40 miles and four tribal ranges) entirely. Altogether, I make that quite a bit of "let up." At the least, that's only four (4) sovereign tribes to bribe, rather than twelve (12). :)

c) The Gargun could be a problem (although the Gargun complication may not occur to Harnic traders, unless the approximate location of Korego is actually known in-game). On the other hand, the existence of the Korego Gargun could actually be a help, at least in initially negotiating the new route with the Tulwyn. If pitched in the right way, a fort at the route's mid-point could be seen as an aid to the Tulwyn, in stopping Gargun swarms from reaching the heart of their territory. Of course, this still leaves the Mylmoc (whose range is entirely north of the route, on the western slope of the Felshas, between it and Korego) swinging in the breeze, Gargun-wise. But the Mylmoc are also one of the sovereign tribes which currently get no share in the Salt Route bribes . . . so my above should be corrected to "five (5) sovereign tribes to bribe, rather than twelve (12)." :)

d) Further bonding taxes or wharfage fees would be necessary only if the craft stopped and/or unloaded at towns along the way. There's no need for them to do either (when stopping overnight they could tie off to a tree few miles up-/down-stream or even simply anchor mid-stream) - although the local authorities could always try to make them tie up to a "proper" dock, in the interests of "safety." I expect that the Merchantyler's Guild would strongly object to such attempts.

e) As you say, tradition is a strong and often overlooked force. But it's perhaps rather less strong in the Thardic Republic than in a feudal society. Events in the Republic seem to be driven much more by open greed . . . and shortening the Salt Route would save a lot of people money. Of course, it would also cost other people that same money. The phrase "it depends on how much and whose money" comes to mind . . .

By the way, the Tharda map show's a legionary fort (1 company) at Estane as the easternmost settlement. It's located only about a mile or so from the extreme east-southeasternmost point of the Lake. And a couple of large stream beds are shown heading uphill almost directly east - going off the map - at that point. Blazing the trail would thus likely be fairly simple: follow one of these streams to it's origin point, keep going east until you locate another stream's origin point and finally follow this downhill til you reach the Farin.

Sounds like a job that even the most dense PC party could handle . . . assuming they survive, of course. :)

It was nice of you not to point out that I misread both the a) Tulwyn and b) Gozyda articles, above:

a) All of my careful math involving the differing number of tribes matters not a whit, since the "[t]olls collected are taken to the overchief [head of the leading tribe] who divides them fairly among the tribes." :/ On the plus side, this more careful second reading did let me notice that "to the east the Tulwyn avoid [sic] the southern reaches of the Gargun-infested Felsha mountains." According to the range map, the avoided portion is composed of the higher elevations. Thus - except in the event of swarms - there must not be *too* many Gargun normally encountered in the area of interest.

b) The Gozyda are divided into three sub-nations, with the ranges of only two of these located along the Salt Route. As both sub-nations are composed of independent family units too small to threaten the large annual caravans, they don't figure into the math at all. Although they could prompt lesser mercantylers (those who would like to pursue out-of-season trade in caravans small enough to be vulnerable to Gozyda families) to seek an alternate route.

And - yes - it would be a very hard scenario. So I think I'll wait until the party has a few Pathfinder levels under their collective belt, before I offer them this commission. Preferably, such a party would include a skilled Bard (for those difficult negotiations), as well.

BTW, speaking of Bards . . .

I'm thinking that (in Harnic terms) a Pathfinder/3.5 Bard would be - essentially - a priest of Save K'nor. After all, isn't Save K'nor the one who has that tale-spinning travelling minstrel - the one who uses a lute - as one of his demigods?

Pathfinder is - apparently - quite close to 3.5. At least, people I know who've played both say that the only difference is that Pathfinder has simplified some aspects.

I'm not very concerned about maintaining the Arcane/Divine split. I see this as more a philosophical or psychological split than an actual one. Wizards must memorize their spells in advance, because that's how they learned to use them; clerics must pray for them in advance because that's how *they* learned. I'm thinking that for this campaign, any folk who manipulate mana eventually come to the notice of the Harnic deities, especially as they become more powerful. While they might start out ignoring the Gods altogether, as time goes on (as they increase in level), they will tend to get wrapped up in divine machinations, whether they intend for this to happen or not.

As for Pvaric philosophy, I'm thinking that most of the Pathfinder/3.5 spells could actually be from any of the Convocations or else be Neutral. The different Elements could be combined in various ways and yield the same results. A "Fireball" thrown by a Jmovin wouldn't actually involve fire, but would be something (vaporized iron ore?) that would cause the same effects. The difference would be in the descriptions.

As this campaign begins at Trobridge Inn, human PCs will be strongly encouraged and no Evil PCs permitted, I'm thinking:

Barbarian = Starts as a Tulwyni berserker; at high level, Kekamar (CN) and perhaps eventually Sarajin (LN) get personally interested.

Bard = Starts as a simple thespian from the Thardic League; at high level, first the Rydequelyn and eventually Save-K'nor (NG) will take notice. And may oppose him/her, if the PC doesn't join up and so threatens to upset "the balance."

Cleric = Ilvir (N), Larani (LG), Peoni (LG) or Sarajin (LN). As per the Corebook, PC alignment must be within one step of the chosen diety. For Save-K'nor, see Bard above; for Siem, see Druid, below.

Druid = Starts as shaman/wise woman of the Gozyda or Kath; at high levels, Siem (LN) begins to take notice.

Fighter = Starts as a Trobridge Inn gaurd (if Lawful or Good) or one of Kurson of Ondailis' men (if Chaotic or Neutral); at high level, either Larani or Sarajin will express interest.

Monk = Starts as a strange foreigner who speaks Harnic with a pronounced accent and left the Cherafir Alienage after a "disagreement" with the local Lia Kaviar; at high levels, Larani (LG) expresses interest.

Paladin = Starts as a Larianian squire from Kaldor, the only (?) survivor of the Earl of Qauldris' posse, which was unfortunate enough to encounter a foraging party of Gargun some leagues East of the Inn; at high levels . . . well . . . Larani (LG), of course!

Ranger = Starts as a footloose Jarin woodsman from Evael; at high levels, Siem (LN) takes interest.

Rogue = Starts as an accidental murderer who fled from Kaldor some months ago . . . Naw, just kidding! :) Could be any kind of miscreant, from anywhere. This IS Trobridge, after all. At high levels, Naveh starts expressing interest (shudder!).

Sorcerer = Starts as a Satia-Mavara from Cherafir, on their required quest; at high levels, Siem will most likely take interest (but others are possible: Agrik if Infernal, Ilvir if Aberrant, Morgath if Undead, Naveh if Abyssal, etc).

Wizard = Another Satia-Mavara, this one from Tashal (a more restrictive chantry); as per Sorcerer at high levels, although with less chance of dieties other than Siem taking an interest.

It's my own take.

Peoni - I initially considered NG for Peoni, as she doesn't appear to actively stand for lawfulness. But after thinking about it a while, I realized that a peasant's life (circumscribed about as it is by tradition and mutual dependence within the manorial community) is a very lawful existence. So peasants worshiping a deity who doesn't express an opinion on Law vs Chaos strikes me as unlikely. Also, there's the Earl of Tormau's tolerance and even tacit encouragement of the worship of Peoni by his serfs, since she encourages submission to the established order.

Siem - This deity is so standoffish that some element of Neutrality appears to be demanded. With the Sindarin and Khuzdul being essentially unchanging, any kind of Chaotic alignment for him just didn't feel right. And he simply isn't activist enough (unless he's hidden it REAL well for the last several thousand years anyway) to be a supporter of Good. That leaves me with either N or LN. Since I couldn't see Khuzdul being comfortable with a non-Lawful deity, I went with LN.

Save-K'nor = A priesthood organized from it's inception to work subtly behind the scenes to further the overall good of society seems to pretty much require NG.

Sarajin - The Code of the ("L" word which I can't remember how to spell) changes him from N to LN, for me.

Halea - She's definitely some kind of Neutral. But while her hedonism makes me think "Chaotic," merchantilistic contractual tendencies make me think "Lawful." I still haven't made up my mind.

Ilvir - This deity does what he wants, when he wants, so that could very well be CN. (It's pretty much the definition of it, for PCs anyway). But he doesn't actually seem to purposefully support Chaos; it's merely the unconsidered end effect of his activities. I'm afraid I see Ilvir as far too self-centered and withdrawn from the world (even though he's the only god to actually still dwell here) to be anything other than N. I have the distinct feeling that the principle reason that Ilvir is still camped by Lake Benath is that he's been too busy to get around to moving . . .

Naveh/Agrik/Morgath - I agree with you fully about these three. Naveh's insanely strict fanatics, Agrik's self-defeating ill-order and Morgath's stone-cold insanity really can't support anything other than those alignments (LE/NE/CE).

(I haven't figured out how to quote yet . . .)

That is certainly a valid way to read the Save-K'nor article. And the words of the introduction definitely support some sort of neutrality:

"Adherents of the church have no particular moral bent beyond loyalty to the church and its objectives. However, belief in an ordered society seems to preclude evil or chaotic behavior, and the occasional need to take ruthless action is repugnant to selfless persons."

The last portion in particular (about ruthlessness not fitting with selflessness) seems to be saying that the church isn't Good. But Good doesn't have to mean "protect all innocents." It can also mean "protect the many, even if this harms a few innocents." The typical person - focusing on the immediate situation - usually doesn't consider that last.

Although the goal of the faith seems to be clear (at least to GMs):

(Page 2, last paragraph)

"The purpose of the church was to mirror on the mortal plane, the function of Save-K'nor and his court in heaven. They were to gather knowledge from the world over, hiding what was dangerous, meagerly spooning out hints and lore to individuals where this might preserve order, acting as the arbiter of religious dispute. This was a complicated mission, and has yet to be fully achieved."

"Dangerous" could mean "dangerous to social stability." But it could also mean "dangerous to every living soul." E.g. how to destroy Kelestia.

As to SK's Lawfulness, the usual interpretation of being Lawful is to conform to or otherwise uphold the law. SK - on the contrary - wants to make the law, to shape it into whatever best fits the mission:

(Page 3)

"[The Shea-Al-Aecor] was to use the knowledge and wisdom of the church, albeit covertly, first to obtain a secure position for the church, then to shape social and political institutions."

"[Clerics] moved quietly in elite social circles, making converts among the intelligensia on a one to one basis. Nor did they seek to convert large numbers. They believed, and still believe, that society is always controlled by a few key individuals; these are the people that interest them."

I can certainly see this attitude as a type of Lawful.

But I prefer to think of anyone who sees the law as nothing more than a tool to be used as being Neutral toward Law and Chaos. They've only chosen to use Law because it's more predictable than Chaos.

Essentially, I see SK as a clan patriarch who thinks he knows best what to do to keep his people (Kelestia) safe, regardless of what others think or what tricks he must use.

I've studied a bit of philosophy, but you've obviously studied more than me. (Plus mine was ~20 years ago and not often consciously referred to since). So maybe you're right about Siem; maybe that's why the Khuzdul seem to focus on the demigod given charge over them, rather than on Siem himself. He makes them too uncomfortable, with his inaction/Neutrality.

But I still think that SK is more Neutral than Lawful, at least in the sense that humans understand these terms. He might be Lawful from the perspective of the Harnic gods, but we already know that humans can't understand their grasp of Law: "tis the Concordat and not the will of the god."

(NOTE: SK may not be "Lawful" even from the god's perspective: they obviously can't agree on what's Lawful or SK wouldn't be needed in his role as arbiter of their peace treaty.)

For a Harnic god to be Lawful (from the human viewpoint) would seem to require the publication of a fixed code of conduct and adherence to that code. Whether that code promotes "Good" or "Evil" behavior is a different matter. SK doesn't publish a code. In fact, if/when you learn the deepest secrets of his church, his philosophy is pretty much "the ends justify the means." That makes him Neutral as regards Law and Chaos, at least to my mind. Add that he seeks to protect Kelestia from the dissolution that uncontrolled Chaos would bring - an arguably Good purpose - and I end up with NG.

TULWYNI: In submitting my previous posts, I had to re-read the Tulwyn article twice, before I noticed:

"Tolls collected are taken to the overchief who divides them fairly among the tribes."

Followed a bit later by:

"Even the great seasonal caravans exchange gifts with the Tulwyni who will usually must a force thirty leagues from Taztos to intercept them for this purpose."

Note that only one force is mustered for each seasonal caravan, with the toll collected distributed "fairly among the tribes." Thus, there would likely be effects on Tulwyn internal politics only if the specific distribution changes. Is the distribution based on which and how much of a particular tribe's lands are crossed? Or is it based on some other factor (such as the tribe's ranking relative to other tribes)? If the latter applies - very likely or else the lead Kirandar tribe would get NONE of the loot (per the tribal range map in the Tulwyn article, which shows the Salt Route lying completely outside its range) - there is no risk of internal upheaval.

Also - by the same map - the new route hardly crosses the "heart" of Tulwyn territory. The current route crosses the territory of 10 of the 29 sovereign tribes. The new one crosses the territory of only 5 tribes or even just 3 (if the Farin is used to complete the last leg upstream to Trobridge, with a tow-path along the eastern bank). Of course, one of these is the lead Kirandar tribe but the crossing is through the narrowest and hilliest extent of their range (rather than it's "heart").

THARDAN - To my mind, this is the most likely the source of the reason a shorter route has not been developed yet. Moleryn is the capital of Ramala Province; routing the caravan elsewhere would severely reduce the lucrativeness of the post. Of course, it would likewise *increase* the lucrativeness of other posts (namely Firis and Estane, the latter of which must currently be very minor, in Lucrativeness Rankings). So changing the route would depend upon finding a Senator with the right mixture of craftiness and patience. Such a paragon could bargain himself into possession of these seemingly-minor posts without being too obvious about it, at the same time that he arranges a quiet deal with the Mercantyler's Guild to possibly re-route their flatboats at some future date . . . and hires the PCs to secretly build him a trail 15-20 leagues in length (with most of it through hilly wilderness), negotiating it with the Tulwyn as they go.

I don't have access to the interactive map (still too poor).

But the Gargun information in Harndex says they generally have a hunting radius of two to three map hexes around the marked site. The new route is rather a bit further away than this.

While the occasional swarm would be a danger (these seem able to reach the heart of the Tulwyn range), Gargun patrols or hunting parties probably aren't. Like the other poster said, there's an entire Tulwyn sovereign tribe (the Mylmoc) between Korego and the new route. Even if the Gargun stick to the heights (which the Tulwyn avoid) on the way southwest, they would still need to come down through foothills controlled by another sovereign tribe (the Tuga) before reaching the new route.

I downloaded (from another site . . .) a bit of fan-fic which recasts the crew from Joss Whedon's Firefly TV show onto Harn.

I found it very interesting. But the author has the organization who messed with River be The Order Of The Crimson Dancer. Eh? When did they get involved in manipulating society from behind the scenes? And why would a wealthy family send a daughter off to be schooled by AGRIKANS?!

Much better: a school run by SK's church (which rarely accepts even lay adherents, let alone non-adherents) approaches a wealthy family with the offer of a place for their exceptional daughter . . . who's proving impossible to marry off, as she intimidates every acceptable suitor who applies. The Tams jump at the chance.

Yep. My SK is still NG. His church re-builds "River" into an assassin, in Service to the Greater Good. Just as the Operative preaches to Mal, in "Serenity."

Now . . . how to make the Gargun SK's fault . . . hmmm. :)

SK: The organization which experimented on Kiba/River is trying to "do good." Specifically, it seeks to preserve/advance a stable society for the betterment of all, even if doing so means taking the occasional ruthless action. I think this fits what Parliament (or at least an influential cabal therein) is trying to do in the Firefly/Serenity universe like a blue glove . . . and it's also almost word-for-word what the SK article defines his church's mission to be.

And I think I figured out how to make the Gargun into SK's fault: Lothrim was a renegade SK priest, trying to rush the creation of a truly ordered society, centuries or even millenia ahead of it's time. This view makes him a messianic leader, in the mold of Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. He knew what was "right" and was going to make sure it happened, no matter what.

NOTE: I had to google Applewhite's name, BTW. Just so you know I'm not some death cult groupie. :)

FIREFLY/LORKIN: I don't like the type of boat chosen. A Firefly is a highly-maneuverable boat, whereas a dak/cog (with single square mainsail and almost-square hull) is a slug. Even though it's a bit modern (dating from the 1400s rather than the 1300s), I think a two- or three-masted caravel makes a much more Firefly-like option. On such a boat, Kayly/Kaylee's main task becomes changing the sail-rig between agile-but-relatively-low-powered lateen sails (for inshore work) and clumsy-but-relatively-high-powered square sails (for ocean crossings) as needed.